There isnt much else to say. Velour, please do not be so quick to assume that because someone failed to mention treatment, that they are against it. However, they are very good at confronting self-deception with reality, and that can sometimes be less than pleasant. We are the body of Christ. I get that church is not just a building, its people. In this day and age of the internet, if someone has a problem (like alcoholism or a psychological issue) they could Google about it. What a terrible experience to go through so young. Thats not going to happen to a church CEO within the church over which he presides. Muff Potter wrote: Velour wrote: The recidivism statistics bear this out, and the treatment programs are just as disappointing. I speak from some experience on this. Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. He was into the Federal Vision (Doug Wilson) heresy which caused a lot of anguish for a lot of people for years. Biblical church discipline is not Dark Ages nor cruel. Your opinions are important and need to be validated. If any are reading and know what Im talking about, please contact me. I am glad that you found resources. It is a gift. Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. They generally avoided RC Jr like the plague. No one has said we shouldnt try. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) I know that scriptures about church discipline have been posted in their proper context, even with compassion for how to treat those who have repented. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? Temporarily remove the alcohol factor from consideration. Is this text taught or preached in churches? He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. We can do better. I feel everyone involved( church, family, job should ethically help a person reach bottom. I have and it can be a beautiful thing. But please dont attach my name to it and say that Im ratifying it. Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was? By the very nature of the role he occupies, he likewise claims authority over what God is or is not saying to the members of the organisation. I am, however, shocked and disappointed that in this day and age with all that is known about helping people with addictions that people would advocate Dark Ages treatment that addicts should be kicked out of the church and proof-text their way to doing it. As far as I know, no prior convictions. I have to be careful what I say because of my blog and if you went on to say JA is against treatment for alcoholics based on what you thought, you would be giving misinformation. an immoral person, [sexual immorality?] his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. And they have people in their life who are honest with them and call them on it. So very Dark Ages. Hi VELOUR, Sigh. That will certainly be my prayer for him, his family, former church members that he has harmed, and present church members that he is harming. To me, the bottom line is Does RSJ want help? My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. I understand. to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? This Wikipedia article covers things like the Ashley Madison scandal and his defrocking. Any time Ive ever gone to a church, what normally happens is I attend a Sunday School class where a teacher raises some topic (not pertaining to alcoholism), then I go and sit in the large worship area where I listen to a rock band play. Sproul Jr.s spiritual abuse of former church members and entire families. I havent even been posting much to this blog in the last few months. The addict builds up a tolerance over time. (This is different from hiding them for a little while and bringing them back on an apology/book tour.). (BTW, I agree with her.). Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. Reports I have read from many who attended St. Peter indicated that it was run like a cult. Today, JUNE 21, 2017, the Huffington Post ran an article called, THE SUPER PREDATORS: Will they be publicly humiliated next? (Sometimes some of the treatment programs can create another set of problems in a person.). I would agree the church in the dark ages had a very bad reputation when it came to church discipline, Spanish Inquisition and all that. She's given me permission to share her letter and you can use it as you deem fit. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. Dear friends, Now that my rant is over, I feel that if a business can tell tell an employee Joe you have a problem thats affecting your work, get help then a church should be able in love to request/require an individual to get treatment. You have taken this quote out of context . There are many programs that are funded by grants and charitable donations to pay for these services. Not impressed. In fact, I get very nauseated from using any sort of opioids. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. Perhaps the Serenity Prayer, usually ascribed to Reinhold Niebuhr, will help some of us: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, She was wise enough to divorce him and move across the country. Please stop? @ brian: If so, how did the other impression get started and take hold, do you think? Q. Im not contesting that. He is damaging indeed, and the fruits are showing. Because DUIs are manly. I have read it several times, actually. Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. Maybe the congregation in question would give the same love and grace to someone in a pew. If you are a subordinate leader (and maybe not always in lock-step with the top dog), you will be more likely to be asked or forced to step down. This guy has way more going on than alcoholism. Right. I was right there, like I always was, at times he would be cussing, why this or that but he needed me. as opposed to their christian relatives who have been strapped with all manner of convoluted *& conjectured* shoulds and shouldnts. My point was that RC Jr. appears to be / have been a controlling cult leader, which is similar to what your ex-pastor sounds like from what I remember reading. Had therapy and continues to do so. Q. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? Velour wrote: Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. @ Max: R.C. Rcjr had his license suspended for six months. Drunkenness is also condemned. I learned an important lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when I was young. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. Thank you. Heartbreaking tragedy is not an excuse for substance abuse. And looking at this from a third angle: Even if the person may have been hurt they may still be absolutely correct and objective in what they say. The Bible shows us how, and helps us to do that. In time, this changes for the better. And he is correct in that drunkenness is a sin but drinking wine is not forbidden. R C is 23 degrees from Jennifer Aniston, 24 degrees from Drew Barrymore, 25 degrees from Candice Bergen, 28 degrees from Alexandre Dumas, 22 degrees from Carrie Fisher, 34 degrees from Whitney Houston, 23 degrees from Hayley Mills, 23 degrees from Liza Minnelli, 21 degrees from Lisa Presley, 23 degrees from Kiefer Sutherland, 23 degrees from Bill Veeck and 28 degrees from Brian Nash on our single family tree. . Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! WOW!!! CONTENT MAY BE COPYRIGHTED BY WIKITREE COMMUNITY MEMBERS. In very pious terms of course. Unfortunately, I am in a lot of pain and maybe looking at surgery so I am having trouble keeping up with things. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? This!! To me, its the better road than the kick them out approach. We met many times at a local restaurant after car shows. Put that drink away now! Here as I type these words, there is a bottle of wine sitting on the kitchen counter within my view. If a church has an alky support group/ministry theyd be the exception, and only in that case would I say a church is qualified to step in and help. People do terrible things. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. Please pardon me for saying this, but from the tone of your comments, it seems as if your reaction was more to go to war with Barbara than to try to find out what she actually meant. So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? That he should get treatment; and He never went to jail longer than three days because he was a Southern Baptist preachers son. The responsibility of a pastor/leader is FAR greater, not less. Please stop advocating for his children? Sproul was driving under the influence. She stated in her comment to H.U.G. How do you realistically deal with the tragedies hes faced with those beliefs? Time to get specific. Its hard here to put everything in words, but I really dont think we are very far apart on this issue. Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/ The idea that hurting people hurt people is correct but it is not comprehensive. 1. repetitive and in a rut some thoughts. 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